Curse

Balan Makki · Mar 11, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

QFT. I wish I could say that I'm surprised by the stupidity of people, but I'd be lying. The truth is, I expect people to be stupid, because they mostly are. I love finding someone who exceeds my expectations simply because people that do are so rare.

It's not so much that people are inherently stupid. It's just that Blizzard has mastered a formula that trains players into believing they're having fun, as they are slowly leeched of life and money, while grinding for Pixel Power and E-Peen Leetness. . . At the base of ever WoW vs GW argument, (in posts here occasionally and on the WoW forums constantly) players claim Fun as their motive. Fun is always the last ditch attempt at Verbalizing why WoWers play WoW. They are not differentiating Addiction, whether healthy or not, and fun. It is in this respect that they are rather ignorant, and the gene pool tends not to favor ignorance of this kind, much like abortion, such practices tend to erase their existence.

My reason for posting in these threads, here and on the WoW forums, is to help some, even if it is a very few, to come to grips with a very new and insidious form of addiction, similar to gambling, but with a new twist, a promise that if you stick around Month after paying-Month, you'll see a bigger and bigger payoff, no one is a loser in our casino. This is probably lots healthier than drinking and driving nights (what I did as a youth), but there is so much more than WoW, or even GW. If you havn't read any Conan stories read at least one: R.E. Howard hits it on the head with "Xuthal of the Dusk", a story that bares a striking parallel to the MMO phenomena. WoW players do not have a choice, it is either all or nothing, WoW does not cater to the player who wishes to live beyond this Black lotus Dream. It is an addiction plain and simple, and like the millions addicted to alcohol, tobacco, etc. they will fight tooth and nail with denial and false claims. Xuthal of the Dusk describes perfectly what will happen to your soft an cushy Dream when it's time to wake up, metaphorically speaking.

My reason for playing WoW was based on being a huge fan of Blizzard's past performance. And then when I realized what they were actually up to with WoW, and that many of Blizzards best designers, had "jumped ship", during WoW development, for "Unspecified" reasons. . .

WoW is simply the best Asian Grinder ever developed. It's not that people are stupid, it's just that Blizzard is smarter than 10 million subscribers. By the shear fact that they, Blizzard "Own" 10 million lives. Ask a WoW player to delete and vendor all their game character and items; they won't they'll make the argument that they've worked too hard, invested to much time, had too much fun. Blizzard owns them.

Balan Makki · Mar 11, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

And whoever the hell talked about GW having more contents needs to do his/her research. WOW has A SHITLOAD MORE contents. Whether those are good or bad contents is up to your opinion. I personally find most GW contents useless and not fun repetitively. That's my opinion, you don't have to care.

You may be refering to the fact that GW has far more Endgame Content. Being that you can play any area, in the entire game. Where in WoW, you have to repeat the same ole recycled content dozens of times to proceed to the next recycled dungeon for dozens of repeats to get to the next . . . and the next . . .

3000 quests in wow per alliance, 6000 quest total, but for a single character around 3000.

1000 quests in GW.

--Comparing the entire game WoW wins, but only the linear Asian Grinder Levelfest. Though GW has repeatable Missions, something WoW does not.

--Comparing Endgame, GW has the entire world at the same level as the player--HM and most of NM. All quests can be done Hardmode if you like. GW has a much larger Endgame.

--PvP in WoW is so borked it doesn't even qualify as content, not applicable.

--GW has PvP as Endgame content. . .

My opinion, GW has much more for a player from begining to end.

Bryant Again · Mar 11, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

They are not differentiating Addiction, whether healthy or not, and fun.

Do not attempt to speak for 10 million people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

Ask a WoW player to delete and vendor all their game character and items; they won't they'll make the argument that they've worked too hard, invested to much time, had too much fun. Blizzard owns them.

You could probably ask the same of any GW player. Why do I not want to delete any of my WoW or GW characters? Because I don't want to have to start from scratch. Online games don't have "checkpoints" or "saved games." Our characters are the only means of having that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

--Comparing the entire game WoW wins, but only the linear Asian Grinder Levelfest. Though GW has repeatable Missions, something WoW does not.

--Comparing Endgame, GW has the entire world at the same level as the player--HM and most of NM. All quests can be done Hardmode if you like. GW has a much larger Endgame.

--PvP in WoW is so borked it doesn't even qualify as content, not applicable.

--GW has PvP as Endgame content. . .

--Instances aren't repeatable?

--Saying "GW has endgame" is the same way as saying "FFXII has endgame." It's not endgame and merely the game. It's not meant to be repeated. You could also (almost) say the same thing of WoW: You can go back to any area of the game free of cost. While it's not at the same level, you can explore the areas and still kill the monsters if you wish.

--Um okay.

--And WoW doesn't, apparently.

AuraofMana · Mar 11, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

You may be refering to the fact that GW has far more Endgame Content. Being that you can play any area, in the entire game. Where in WoW, you have to repeat the same ole recycled content dozens of times to proceed to the next recycled dungeon for dozens of repeats to get to the next . . . and the next . . .

Okay... the endgame contents you are referring to in GW requires me to play through the horribly designed storyline through those random missions (some of them were fun, and the rest was boring and annoying at best in challenging rating). As for recycled contents in WOW, look at the dungeons in GWEN.

Quote:

Though GW has repeatable Missions, something WoW does not.

Repeated missions that no one cares about. People only replay dungeons and elite dungeons in Cantha for farming. The 4 people that replay missions for fun is 4 people.

Quote:

GW has a much larger Endgame.

No it does not. It has an easier accessed end game does not mean it has more contents. More readily available != more contents. Given time, I can access all WOW materials. All games have their own pace, so just because GW ends the game faster does not mean it has more contents or is the best.

Quote:

Addiction

There are 2 types of addictions. One where you are drawn into it and you cannot stop even though you hate it. For example, EQ had a lot of that. People have spent so much time playing it that they don't want to quit to waste, but they feel like playing is a job.
The 2nd type is that you are having fun doing it. It's still an addiction, but you enjoy it.

Quote:

WoW is simply the best Asian Grinder ever developed

Yes, so what? Who is to say what is right and what is wrong in video game developing? If people are having fun playing your game, you know your game has done its job. Yes, we know Blizzard is making tons of money from WOW, but what do you expect? In its core, every game company is a company. It needs to get players hooked somehow to continue to thrive.
No one ever said Asian Grinding is a wrong idea, it's just that most Asian Grinding games become boring because it has way too much grind it is noticeable by the blindest players. WOW has grind, but most people are enjoying the game that it isn't a grind to them. Yes, it's addicting, but people enjoy it. If that's what people find fun, then they can do whatever they want.

Quote:

Do I grind in chess?

Yes, yes you do. Grinding means you do repeated actions over and over again. Doing any basic mechanics in any video game is grinding. Whether or not you find it fun is up to you. People tend to associate grinding that isn't fun with the word grinding. I am playing PvP, I am using this skill over and over again. Is that grinding? Yes, it is. You might enjoy it while others do not.
And yes, we all know the addictiveness of raising your integer by 1.

Quote:

Advertising, pure and simple.

Yes, except you can quit any time. Notice I said "active player", not "how many player have purchased". And, interestingly, a lot of people in this forum talk about "how many people play GW" with the sales number, which is inaccurate in telling how successful a game is.

Quote:

Wrong. I think you are confused with progression and grind.

Progression is just a nicer way of putting it.
"I am grinding levels" vs. "I am progressing through my levels".
"I am grinding PvP in GW" vs. "I am progressing through my PvP in GW".
Same thing. And notice: grinding does not mean you aren't having fun.
Really, all games grind. It doesn't mean anything other than fun in the end because it's just a game. That is a nature of a game. If you want some purpose out of playing video games, then either go to South Korea or do something in real life.

Buster · Mar 11, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

I come from successful mmo games such as FFXI and did 6 months of WOW time. The fans/players of those games love their game and could care less how much grind there is. They like their game alot so to them it doesn't matter if it takes them 2 months or longer to finish end game.

Guild Wars fans grind everyday and never realize it. They make over 10 pve characters doing the same missions/quests over and over but yet complain about grind. I would rather have 2-3 high level charcters over time than have 10 characters doing the same thing over and over again.

Asking GW players to put a little more effort into obtaining things and they go ballistic. Asking players from other highly successful mmo games to do more things and they don't complain. They keep on playing the game they love to play.

Alleji · Mar 11, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

It's not so much that people are inherently stupid. It's just that Blizzard has mastered a formula that trains players into believing they're having fun, as they are slowly leeched of life and money, while grinding for Pixel Power and E-Peen Leetness. . . At the base of ever WoW vs GW argument, (in posts here occasionally and on the WoW forums constantly) players claim Fun as their motive. Fun is always the last ditch attempt at Verbalizing why WoWers play WoW. They are not differentiating Addiction, whether healthy or not, and fun. It is in this respect that they are rather ignorant, and the gene pool tends not to favor ignorance of this kind, much like abortion, such practices tend to erase their existence.

No, I'd say fun is the reason people play WoW, or games in general. Sure, they may be addicted to it, but that is because they are having fun. Grind can be fun too. I realize the game is a giant carrot-on-a-stick, but that does not exclude it from being fun, because I know I sure as hell had fun grinding out all the purples for my mage. I also had fun leveling (=grinding) my warlock and my rogue.

Of course, periods of it were frustrating, such as bad heroic pugs to get tokens for stuff, or getting matched up against a premade in BG twice in a row and having zero chance of winning, but other parts were fun, like pulling all the weight in that terrible heroic pug, soloing two elites as a mage after a group wipe, or somehow winning against a premade with a random team.

You can call it addiction, but my point is the game WOULD NOT BE ADDICTIVE if it wasn't fun.

Quote:

My reason for posting in these threads, here and on the WoW forums, is to help some, even if it is a very few, to come to grips with a very new and insidious form of addiction, similar to gambling, but with a new twist, a promise that if you stick around Month after paying-Month, you'll see a bigger and bigger payoff, no one is a loser in our casino. This is probably lots healthier than drinking and driving nights (what I did as a youth), but there is so much more than WoW, or even GW. If you havn't read any Conan stories read at least one: R.E. Howard hits it on the head with "Xuthal of the Dusk", a story that bares a striking parallel to the MMO phenomena. WoW players do not have a choice, it is either all or nothing, WoW does not cater to the player who wishes to live beyond this Black lotus Dream. It is an addiction plain and simple, and like the millions addicted to alcohol, tobacco, etc. they will fight tooth and nail with denial and false claims. Xuthal of the Dusk describes perfectly what will happen to your soft an cushy Dream when it's time to wake up, metaphorically speaking.

I don't see how recommending people to read comic books is relevant. I'm sure there's thousands of stories in the corpus of English literature that describe the issues of addiction, past and present. And you recommend a comic book?

As for the parallel to drugs, I'd have to disagree. Drugs are a chemical addiction. WoW is not. WoW's "addiction" relies on having fun. When the game stops being fun, you stop playing it. Your addiction vanishes, as did mine. With WoW and GW, both.

Quote:

WoW is simply the best Asian Grinder ever developed. It's not that people are stupid, it's just that Blizzard is smarter than 10 million subscribers. By the shear fact that they, Blizzard "Own" 10 million lives.

Yes, Blizzard developed a product that 10 million people enjoy. If anything, Blizzard should be complemented on that, not accused of owning people's lives. A lot of them may enjoy it excessively, at least in the eyes of others, but I don't see why Blizzard should be blamed for that.

I'm gonna sue McDonalds because I enjoy their food so much I ate 10 burgers a day and got fat?

Quote:

Ask a WoW player to delete and vendor all their game character and items; they won't they'll make the argument that they've worked too hard, invested to much time, had too much fun. Blizzard owns them.

Um... wtf kind of argument is that?

Can you please vendor all your items in GW and delete your characters.

No, seriously?

Please?

Case closed.

ogre_jd · Mar 11, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Okay... the endgame contents you are referring to in GW requires me to play through the horribly designed storyline through those random missions (some of them were fun, and the rest was boring and annoying at best in challenging rating).

What horribly designed storyline? Can't comment on anything but Prophecies, but it's quite a decent epic fantasy storyline (it's no LotR, of course, but it's definitely better than a lot I've read over the years), at least as far as I've gotten (Gates of Kryta), with Missions that are not at all random as they coherently advance the storyline. Quests can be a little random, as is normal for CRPGs, but many of those also add to the storyline.

Sefk · Mar 11, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Progression is just a nicer way of putting it.
"I am grinding levels" vs. "I am progressing through my levels".
"I am grinding PvP in GW" vs. "I am progressing through my PvP in GW".
Same thing. And notice: grinding does not mean you aren't having fun.
Really, all games grind. It doesn't mean anything other than fun in the end because it's just a game. That is a nature of a game.

Quote:

To Grind means to do one task the most efficient way possible in a repetitious manner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind_%28gaming%29
To progress:

Quote:

to develop to a higher, better, or more advanced stage

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/progressing

I don't need to grind to progress, since I don't need to be progress efficiently and I don't need to progress doing repetitive patterns.

1 up and 2 down · Mar 11, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

2. Nobody gives a damn about what you play, and the world won't stop if you shut up. Okay, look, you play whatever the hell you want and everyone else do the same. Nobody cares. No one talks about GW on WOW forums because they don't give a shit about you. If you feel the need to bash about WOW to calm you insecurity then you have already admitted WOW > GW. WOW players don't need to bash GW to feel superior, that's because they know they are superior. But then, who cares? These are games and people have tastes and preferences. Stick to your own, and stop trying to convert people. Nobody cares.

This statement makes you seem like an ignorant ass. Whether you are one is yet to be determined.

Here are just a few of the threads on the official WoW forum that talk about Guild Wars.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=1

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=1

These are from late 07 and 08. I wonder how many more have been made before these?

So yeah, WoW players do talk about Guild Wars.

bhavv · Mar 11, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I'm still amazed a game with so amazingly shitty graphics (even considering it's a four year old game) as WoW could hit it big.

Then again, so did SIMS.

Most people dont have uber high end machines. Believe if or not there are still millions of people out there with a Gefore 5200, or even just a Geforce 2. These people might want to play a good game, and pick up WoW because it *is* a good game and it will run on their PC.

By todays standards, the graphics in GW are also amazingly shitty if compared to current modern games. Take LOTRO for example:

So erm, why does anyone still play GW and WoW then if they have *Shitty* graphics in comparison?

Maybe it is largely due to the fact that they are still great games? Just last week I found myself playing through Civilization 1 + 2 and Alpha Centauri again because I love the clasic Sid Meier games. Yes I do have Civ 4 too, but I wanted to go back and play the great older ones.

You know there are still plenty of people out there that also still play Space Invaders and Pong, particularly the people that grew up on those games.

- P.S. I only said the graphics in Guildwars are shitty to exemplify that graphics =/= a good game.

I would rank the current MMO's that I have played as follows:

LOTRO > Maple Story > WoW > GW.

Yes GW comes last. It is hardly anywhere near as fun or enjoyable as the other ones, particularly playing with other people. In LOTRO and WoW, you can literally add anone to your party of the required level and the skills that they have and the enemies will be balanced enough to complete whatever mission you are attempting.

'Noob Pugs and useless henchmen' are only a negative feature associated with GW. Both LOTRO and WoW are far more enjoyable in both solo and party play. And I speak entirely for PVE not PVP.

Sefk · Mar 11, 2008, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Yeah but system requirement is not an argument, since GW and WOW have almost the same minimum requirement.

The important thing is that a engine must have low sys req, while being able to render a pretty graphic at max setting.

GW can hold itself among some recent FPS at max, WOW cannot.

bhavv · Mar 11, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sefk

Yeah but system requirement is not an argument, since GW and WOW have almost the same minimum requirement.

No they dont actually.

GW requires a minimum of a Geforce 3, or a DX8 based card with Pixel and Vertex shaders.

WoW only requires a Geforce 2 and doesnt use Pixel or Vertex shaders, hence why it doesnt look as good or shiny.

The difference between a DX7 Geforce 2 and a DX8 Geforce 3 are very significant and grossly underestimated. WoW is a DX7 based game and runs on DX7 cards. GW is DX8 based and will not play on anything below a Geforce 3. It might run, but it will be extremely unplayable, whereas WoW will cope completely fine.

Also you can easilly see the difference between DX8 and DX9 if you compare GW to Lotro, and while Lotro also supports DX10, DX10 will be better demonstrated by AoC.

Going up by a whole DX level and to the next generation of graphics cards makes a huge difference.

warcrap · Mar 11, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

i here ya buddy gw2 better have mounts and stuff because i love those.

bhavv · Mar 11, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by warcrap

i here ya buddy gw2 better have mounts and stuff because i love those.

GW2 is already copying WoW, despite what the hardcore GW fans might think.

OMG it has an open persistant world in which you can play completely solo without H/H and team up with other people wheever you like!

*Cough WoW clone Cough*

Bryant Again · Mar 11, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sefk

GW can hold itself among some recent FPS at max, WOW cannot.

When I first got GW on my GeForce 4400 I had to turn all the settings to low-medium, turn off post-processing, and shadows in order to maintain about 35fps (with a few of them on max it was about 10.) Didn't look too happy.

bhavv · Mar 11, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

When I first got GW on my GeForce 4400 I had to turn all the settings to low-medium, turn off post-processing, and shadows in order to maintain about 35fps (with a few of them on max it was about 10.) Didn't look too happy.

And thats on a DX8 card which is one generation ahead of the minimum required for GW.

I wonder how bad GW would play on minimum settings. WoW would actually run quite happily at medium to high setting on a DX8 based card.

I actually did decide to pay for Lotro instead of WoW purely because of the graphics and I only want to pay for one game. But thats purely because I have a high end system that can play Lotro maxed out on DX10 with 8x AA enabled.

After playing Lotro for quite a while and returning to GW after a skill update, I thought 'OMG how incredibly shitty does this look?'

But GW is free and I can return whenever I want. Also I love Maple Story regardless of its graphics. A lot more then I love GW. GW did use to be my favorite game for a good two years, but I hadnt tried any other MMO then as I didnt want to pay a fee. But £5.99 a month for Lotro (Xmas offer) and its free content updates pwns all over GW in every single way. And I can actually play it solo without getting frustrated over Mhenlos healing breeze or Devonnas Charge.

And when I do require other people for group quests, guess what? They dont suck!

I have yet to see anyone call anyone else a noob in Lotro in over a month of playing it. It is a paradise compared to GW.

Sefk · Mar 11, 2008, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

No they dont actually.

GW requires a minimum of a Geforce 3, or a DX8 based card with Pixel and Vertex shaders.

WoW only requires a Geforce 2 and doesnt use Pixel or Vertex shaders, hence why it doesnt look as good or shiny.

The difference between a DX7 Geforce 2 and a DX8 Geforce 3 are very significant and grossly underestimated. WoW is a DX7 based game and runs on DX7 cards. GW is DX8 based and will not play on anything below a Geforce 3. It might run, but it will be extremely unplayable, whereas WoW will cope completely fine.

Also you can easilly see the difference between DX8 and DX9 if you compare GW to Lotro, and while Lotro also supports DX10, DX10 will be better demonstrated by AoC.

Going up by a whole DX level and to the next generation of graphics cards makes a huge difference.

And GW is released one year later too. And it's now hard to determine how many people updated their pc during 2003-2004-2005 to see how much Anet has lost/gain by releasing 1 year later with 1 year newer graphic card as min requirement. Oh yeah, gw has lower ram requirement.

And that's why you can't purely compare min requirement, since it also depends on the release year.

bhavv · Mar 11, 2008, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sefk

And GW is released one year later too. And it's now hard to determine how many people updated their pc during 2003-2004-2005 to see how much Anet has lost/gain by releasing 1 year later with 1 year newer graphic card as min requirement.

And that's why you can't purely compare min requirement, since it also depends on the release year.

You were compring min requirements saying WoW and GW have the same requirements not me.

I am simply replying to why people play older games with poorer graphics.

So how is it that the 'I love GW but WoW sux' gamer cant understand the fact that WoW is actually an older game and therefore has a lower generations graphics?

WoW is the best looking DX7 based game you can get. GW is perhaps the best looking DX8 game, but playing it on a DX8 card is a joke, you need a good DX9 card like a Geforce 6600 or ATI X1600 to play it maxed out. WoW is a whole generation older, that is obviously why it doesnt look as good.

Sefk · Mar 11, 2008, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

You were compring min requirements saying WoW and GW have the same requirements not me.

I am simply replying to why people play older games with poorer graphics.

So how is it that the 'I love GW but WoW sux' gamer cant understand the fact that WoW is actually an older game and therefore has a lower generations graphics?

WoW is the best looking DX7 based game you can get. GW is perhaps the best looking DX8 game, but playing it on a DX8 card is a joke, you need a good DX9 card like a Geforce 6600 or ATI X1600 to play it maxed out. WoW is a whole generation older, that is obviously why it doesnt look as good.

I said: almost the same, don't deform.

Since 2 people who bought both game at release will face the almost the same. But, it's important to note that GW has less ram requirement than wow. And 512 mb at 2000, it was not so frequent.

Finally, since I don't think that graphic is an argument, why all the rest?

bhavv · Mar 12, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sefk

I said: almost the same, don't deform.

Since 2 people who bought both game at release will face the almost the same. But, it's important to note that GW has less ram requirement than wow. And 512 mb at 2000, it was not so frequent.

Finally, since I don't think that graphic is an argument, why all the rest?

Ram requirements are both the same actually.

512 Meg for minimum, 1 Gb for recommended. I just looked at both my WoW box and NF and they both say that.

But if you have anwhere less then 1 Gb of ram today, you will have difficulty playing any new game. Even Vista requires 2 Gb to run at an acceptable level. But DDR2 ram is actually very cheap compared to other PC components. You can get 2 Gb for under £30 now and that will be fine for just about any game.

One problem would be if your stuck on a DDR1 system, DDR1 ram is incredibly overpriced, and it is more worthwhile to just upgrade to a DDR2 system instead. You can actually buy a motherboard and 1 Gb of DDR2 ram for the same price as 2 Gb of DDR1 ram.

When I just upgraded, I got 4 gig of DDR2 ram for £84 and sold my old 2 Gb of DDR1 ram for £75!!! Also my New motherboard was only £66 and my old sold for £80.

The CPU and GFX card were more expensive. £130 for an E8400, sold my 4400+ for £80, ATI 3870 for £125, sold my X1900 XTX for £95.

But that was a very cheap upgrade from what I sold my old parts for. Gotta love noobs on Ebay ^^